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BornAgain9 Profile
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Atheism: Does it require faith? Is it a religion?


I have been involved in many discussions with Christians on the matter of faith. Faith is one of those elusive words that can have a great many meanings and is understood in different ways by different people. Atheists often understand faith as belief without proof. So they speak of Christians as possessing blind faith.

Take the story of Jesus walking on water. It is found in Matthew, Mark and John. Christians might argue that the proof of the event is that the incident is reported in three seperate gospels. Secularists argue the story was an urban myth picked up by Mark and copied by Matthew and John. That the story is repeated three times is not proof the incident happened. Christians might counter that the Bible is the Word of God and the story of Jesus walking on water must therefore be true; but, this is where faith come in. There is no proof the Bible is God's word. Christian belief that the Bible is the Word of God is a matter faith.

So, do atheists also rely on faith? If I have no proof there is not a God, do I then have faith there is no God? This is the point Free04 makes below:

quoting

BornAgain9 ...
Atheists are simply defined as those individuals who do not accept the existence of any deity. That is all that the word atheist means. To deny there are atheists is to deny that some people do not accept the existence of God.

quoting

Free04 ...
I'll buy this definition and at the same time will say that you have in fact affirmed a belief by faith in not accepting the existence of a deity, not an absolute knowledge, therefore atheism has an element of belief by faith in their viewpoint. The lack of evidence to prove God does not exist or merely suspect God does not exist is a position that quite obviously involves a level of faith. Atheism is a faith system. A religious faith system because it involves God.
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11/29/2009, 9:33 am Link to this post Send Email to BornAgain9   Send PM to BornAgain9 ICQ Blog
 
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Re: Atheism: Does it require faith? Is it a religion?


quoting

Free04 ...
The lack of evidence to prove God does not exist or merely suspect God does not exist is a position that quite obviously involves a level of faith. Atheism is a faith system. A religious faith system because it involves God.
 emoticon



If atheism is simply defined by a lack of belief in the existence of a deity, then does this lack of belief really constitute a system of belief? I don't think it does, anymore than does declaring someone is a theist give us any information about a system of belief. All we can know when told a person is a theist is that they believe in the existence of at least one deity, maybe more. That information does not constitute a system of belief. If I were to say a person is a Christian, on the other hand, that word does conjure up a complete belief system in my mind; but, atheism is no more a belief system than is theism.

The point that it takes faith not to believe in God is not valid. Would you argue it takes faith not to believe in Thor? Do any of us have any reason to believe in Thor? If not then why should it require faith not to believe in Thor? A Hindu might well think it requires faith on my part not to believe in his gods. I don't know if I can even name a single Hindu god, let alone tell you the function of that god, but I certainly don't believe in the existence of any Hindu gods. Does this lack of belief mean that I obviously have faith these particular gods do not exist? Does it take faith not to believe in someone else's deity, or in a deity we may have only just read about that some group once believed in? If not, why then should I require faith not to believe in a god that I can find no justification for believing in?

Note: I do not believe the Lochness Monster exists. I don’t think there is any justification for thinking this creature is real. Does it then require a level of faith to not believe this animal exists? Perhaps, but only in the mind of someone who strongly believes the monster is real.
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Re: Atheism: Does it require faith? Is it a religion?


quoting

BornAgain9 ...
Note: I do not believe the Lochness Monster exists. I don’t think there is any justification for thinking this creature is real. Does it then require a level of faith to not believe this animal exists? Perhaps, but only in the mind of someone who strongly believes the monster is real.

I DO think it requires a "level of faith" to not believe in the Loch Ness monster. I've never been to Loch Ness. I have no way of exploring all the nooks and cranny of the lake. It certainly seems reasonable to say that such a creature doesn't exist, but a flat-out denial of it's existence is impossible for me to make. Denying it's existence takes a "level of faith" that the investigative methods used to find the being are sufficiently accurate that a lack of finding it is most probably due to it's non-existence.

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Re: Atheism: Does it require faith? Is it a religion?


quoting

Bookworm ...
]I DO think it requires a "level of faith" to not believe in the Loch Ness monster. I've never been to Loch Ness. I have no way of exploring all the nooks and cranny of the lake. It certainly seems reasonable to say that such a creature doesn't exist, but a flat-out denial of it's existence is impossible for me to make. Denying it's existence takes a "level of faith" that the investigative methods used to find the being are sufficiently accurate that a lack of finding it is most probably due to it's non-existence.

Nessy, if it exists, is ellusive. The animal is reportedly air breathing, large, and would have to exist in a population large enough to sustain itself. I read of an investigation into its presumed existence a few years back. Boats criss-crossed the lake with active sonar. Nothing was found. If a population of a certain species of fish lived in the Loch we would know about it, so how is it that a large plesiosaur-like population of animals could escape scientific detection?

The fact is, it is no longer plausible to believe Nessy exists. In the absence of evidence it takes faith to continue to believe; it does not take faith to not believe in the absence of something for which there is no evidence.

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Re: Atheism: Does it require faith? Is it a religion?


BA just made this statement in the other thread, so I am moving it here, since he provided in this thread an explanation of what he considers to be a "belief system." He claims it is something that has to be "complete."

I would use atheist in the lower case. Atheism is not a belief system, anymore than theism is a belief system. Unless, of course, you want to argue that theism is a belief system? Do you?

Sure I would say that theism is a belief system. Just because there are more "complete" belief systems within the general system of theism does not mean that theism itself is not a belief system. It is a large belief system into which several smaller belief systems fall.

I also think that my beliefs about Thor are faith beliefs. You seem to think you know for sure that Thor did not exist. How do you know that? It is entirely possible that an evil spirit appeared on earth, did supernatural things, and told people it's name was Thor.
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Re: Atheism: Does it require faith? Is it a religion?


 Atheists have a belief of how the universe was created, they have a belief of how life originated, they have a belief in how modern man came to be and they have a belief that nothing happens after you die. None of the above mentioned is proven by science, but they have a belief for each one. It is systematic from beginning to end.
Atheist today are gathering and standing together to support separation of church and state, which means they are standing up for what they believe to be true and that is God does not exist so don't force it on me. The problem is they certainly can't prove that God does not exist, therefore they don't know that. They can only believe it.

Yes, atheism is a belief system.

---


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Re: Atheism: Does it require faith? Is it a religion?


ABSOLUTELY IT IS emoticon

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The mountain I face today, will be the sand I walk upon tomorrow.
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Re: Atheism: Does it require faith? Is it a religion?


quoting

Free04 ...
Atheists have a belief of how the universe was created, they have a belief of how life originated, they have a belief in how modern man came to be...



The problem in asserting that these are atheist beliefs is that they are held by many Christians as well. Does that mean they are also Christian beliefs?

It does no good to insist that Christians who believe these things are not true Christians; they most certainly would argue that accusation vigorously with you. I cite Francis Collins. He is a Christian. Calls himself an Evangelical Christian, and believes every single thing you listed above. These are not atheist beliefs. They are scientific theories and hypotheses and are share all around the world by people of many faiths.

Atheists have only one belief: there is no God.

The problem with asserting that these are atheist beliefs is that I could turn around and ask you what things theists believe. There is only this answer: God or gods. Knowing that a person is a theist tells me nothing beyond this one fact. They could believe any number of things, just as atheist could.

quoting

Free04 ...
and they have a belief that nothing happens after you die.


Below is a refutation of this statement. It was written by myself at another forum.

I have known a few atheists who believed in an afterlife. I think part of it may be that they started out believing in God, but at the same time believed in the existence of ghosts. They then lost the belief in God, but the belief in ghosts hung on. That's one way to have your cake and eat it too. There are enough New Age authors and ghost 'researchers' around to intellectualize a belief system in ghosts, near death experiences, and the like. I suspect a few pick-up the belief later in life. It would be interesting to conduct a survey.

I think most atheists don't believe in an afterlife, the few who do probably could not define it, but have some fuzzy notions they've picked up from various authors. You want to look at the belief in ghosts as a separate belief system from belief in God. Atheists who accept the reality of ghosts are likely to view it as a part of the natural order, one that science will one day reveal. If you are having trouble getting your head around how an atheist can believe in ghosts but not God, you only need understand that the problem is a result of your own identification of the afterlife with God. Atheists who believe in ghosts don't make that connection.


The point is some atheists do believe in an afterlife, though they are probably not in the majority. I once believed in an afterlife, even as an atheist, and I know two or three atheists who thinks also that there may be an afterlife.

So there you go. You need to revise what you believe about atheists. emoticon

quoting

Free04 ...
None of the above mentioned is proven by science, but they have a belief for each one. It is systematic from beginning to end.



Some of the things above are proven by science; others perhaps not. We'd have to discuss these beliefs further to make sure we are discussing the same things. Atheists, as I said, do sometimes believe in an afterlife, though not a Christian one. For this belief there certainly is no proof at present.

quoting

Free04 ...
Atheist today are gathering and standing together to support separation of church and state, which means they are standing up for what they believe to be true and that is God does not exist so don't force it on me.



Well, I happen to have heard that Christians are also on the side of the atheists in maintaining the separation of church and state, and if I am not mistaken it is part of the American constitution, so why wouldn't Christians be on side with the atheists? So yes, many people, not just atheists, are defending this separation.


quoting

Free04 ...
The problem is they certainly can't prove that God does not exist, therefore they don't know that. They can only believe it.


The reason I don't believe in God is basically the same reason I do not believe in fairies. I can't prove the existence of either, and in the absence of any reason to believe in fairies, or in God, why should I think otherwise? I don't believe in ghosts, goblins, trolls, dragons, unicorns, or Martians either. Do you think it necessary I officially disprove each before I can legitimately claim these things don't exist? Is my notion that dragons don't exist only a belief? Many Muslims believe in the existence of jinn. I don't. Must I have proof jinn don't exist? Would you say my not accepting the existence of jinn is really a belief because it is not something I can prove? Would you use the same argument for fairies?


quoting

Free04 ...
Yes, atheism is a belief system.


Many of the things you cited as atheist beliefs are views shared by many Christians, Jews, and others. None are exclusive to atheists except the non-belief in God. We clearly need to discus this notion of yours further.


I think my main objection to having my scientific views called beliefs, is that beliefs are things that cannot be proven. You cannot prove a negative. You cannot do an experiment to show God or fairies do not exist. You can, however, do research and prove that humans did not exist at the time of dinosaurs. You can provide good evidence to show birds evolved from dinosaurs. In calling these hypotheses beliefs, you demote them to something that cannot be proven. The fact is all scientific hypotheses can be falsified. If a human is found in the rib cavity of a t-rex, that just about settles it. Beliefs are different. They often are not falsifiable. For example, how would you falsify God or fairies?

I think it's time I stop. emoticon
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Bookworm88 Profile
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Re: Atheism: Does it require faith? Is it a religion?


quoting

BornAgain9 ...

quoting

Free04 ...
Atheists have a belief of how the universe was created, they have a belief of how life originated, they have a belief in how modern man came to be...



The problem in asserting that these are atheist beliefs is that they are held by many Christians as well. Does that mean they are also Christian beliefs?

It does no good to insist that Christians who believe these things are not true Christians; they most certainly would argue that accusation vigorously with you. I cite Francis Collins. He is a Christian. Calls himself an Evangelical Christian, and believes every single thing you listed above. These are not atheist beliefs. They are scientific theories and hypotheses and are share all around the world by people of many faiths.

Atheists have only one belief: there is no God.

But that one belief that there is no God carries with it the related belief that there is no creator, doesn't it? Christians may differ regarding HOW creation happened, but there is NOT a sharing of beliefs between Christians and atheists if atheists belueve that there was absolutely no creator.

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Re: Atheism: Does it require faith? Is it a religion?


quoting

BornAgain9 ...



The problem in asserting that these are atheist beliefs is that they are held by many Christians as well. Does that mean they are also Christian beliefs?



Of course Christians have a belief of those things. My post had nothing to do with Christians, but with Atheism and a belief system.

quoting

BornAgain9
 These are not atheist beliefs.



So are you telling me that you don't have a belief in origins?



quoting

BornAgain9
I have known a few atheists who believed in an afterlife.



I am sure it would be a small minority. If as you say that some atheist believe in an afterlife I am wondering how you would have an afterlife without a being that is higher than you? Maybe you are confusing atheism and agnosticism. If there is no god or supreme being how is there an afterlife?


quoting

BornAgain9
 I suspect a few pick-up the belief later in life. It would be interesting to conduct a survey.



Yea, when mortality becomes reality they really start thinking about this life and the chances of our being only by chance and for nothing becomes an absurd notion.


quoting

BornAgain9
Atheists who accept the reality of ghosts are likely to view it as a part of the natural order, one that science will one day reveal.



Reality of ghosts? What evidence is there for ghosts. It is interesting that you say "one that science will one day reveal. (future) That would be saying that now (present) it is only an atheist belief. Earlier in your post you claimed that "Atheists have only one belief: there is no God."
With you saying one belief and now we have a belief in ghost, you contradict yourself.

quoting

BornAgain9 Atheists, as I said, do sometimes believe in an afterlife, though not a Christian one. For this belief there certainly is no proof at present.



What proof is there for another kind of after life?


quoting

BornAgain9
I think my main objection to having my scientific views called beliefs, is that beliefs are things that cannot be proven.



Like origin of the universe (not proven). Origin of life (not proven) and evolution of man, macroevolution (not proven). You have a view on all three of these, you have belief and not just one. It is many if you adhere to scientific explanation of origins, therefore you have a belief system.

quoting

BornAgain9
I think it's time I stop. emoticon



Me too! lol



Last edited by Free04, 8/8/2010, 4:47 am


---


John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
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