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Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Registered: 07-2006
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Which is Correct?


Hmm, an interesting debate. What do you think?

Lordship Salvation
- or -
Free Grace Theology

 emoticon

---
Lord, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I’m not scared 'cause You’re holding my breath.
I only fear that I don’t have enough time left, to tell the world that there’s no time left. -G1C

8/26/2008, 10:46 pm Link to this post Send PM to Order ofMelchizedek
 
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Registered: 07-2006
Location: Washington State
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Re: Which is Correct?


Okay I think I was able to follow most of the Lordship Salvation but got totally lost in the Free Grace Theology.

I do think that those who have Salvation will exhibt the fruits of the spirit

quoting

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Galations 5:22-26





---
Peace, that brief period in history when everyone stops to reload.
8/29/2008, 1:57 pm Link to this post Send Email to Staybrite   Send PM to Staybrite
 
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Re: Which is Correct?


Yeah, I didn't realize there was a big controversy on this, but I just got a book by John MacArthur called "The Gospel According to Jesus" that goes into this subject.

It seems to me that if we have saving faith, our lives will be changed.
I mean, the Bible tells us that the gate is small and the way is narrow. It tells us that there are many who will sincerely believe that they are saved, only to find out that they are not, and Jesus will tell them, "Away from Me, you workers of iniquity."

And then we have these verses, which would really seem to do it for me.

1 John 2:3
We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His commands.



Ezekiel 33:18-19
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so.



2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription:
"The Lord knows those who are His," and "Everyone who confesses the Name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.



Hebrews 10:26-27
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.



Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely does a man deserve to be punished, who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and has insulted the spirit of grace?


---
Lord, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I’m not scared 'cause You’re holding my breath.
I only fear that I don’t have enough time left, to tell the world that there’s no time left. -G1C

8/29/2008, 2:31 pm Link to this post Send PM to Order ofMelchizedek
 
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Registered: 05-2007
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Re: Which is Correct?


I have heard of both views (though not by name) before... and ehh... yeah...

acts 10:43
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

romans 6:6-7
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

romans 6:11
Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.


Ok, now call me crazy but... these all seem to say that if you call on Jesus, if you belive in him for your eternal salvation, he will grant you freedom from sins, that you "might live for righteousness" sooo... you would think that being the definition for righteousness is "Righteousness, as used in Scripture and theology, in which it chiefly occurs, is nearly equivalent to holiness, comprehending holy principles and affections of heart, and conformity of life to the divine law." so, doesn't that dictate that in being saved and set apart from sin you would by default cause you to be full of good works? I mean, to not be showing good works, wouldn't that be slightly hypocritical?? emoticon

Last edited by Skys, 9/3/2008, 4:38 pm


---
Living in a fallen world is no excuse against standing tall or getting back up faster then we first stumble.
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Re: Which is Correct?


Yeah, that makes sense. In the Book of James, it tells us that faith without works is dead. So, we are saved by faith alone, but works will always follow true saving faith.

How could it not? Thus, the "carnal" Christian of Free Grace Theology cannot exist - they are not Christians if they are refusing to obey the Lord.

There will be many who stand before Him on Judgment day, fully expecting to be let in, but Jesus will say to them, "Away from Me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you!" That has got to be the scariest verse in the entire Bible.

---
Lord, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I’m not scared 'cause You’re holding my breath.
I only fear that I don’t have enough time left, to tell the world that there’s no time left. -G1C

9/3/2008, 11:34 pm Link to this post Send PM to Order ofMelchizedek
 
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Re: Which is Correct?


quoting

Order ofMelchizedek ...

Yeah, that makes sense. In the Book of James, it tells us that faith without works is dead. So, we are saved by faith alone, but works will always follow true saving faith.

How could it not? Thus, the "carnal" Christian of Free Grace Theology cannot exist - they are not Christians if they are refusing to obey the Lord.
 

But don't we all at times refuse to obey the Lord? So really, we are talking about the level or extent of carnality that might exist in every person after they have been saved and justified. Some people are going to have all the works of their life burned up and have no gold, silver, or precious stones to show for themselves, and yet they themselves would still be saved, yet so as by fire. If I witness to someone, can I tell them that TODAY, if they accept the Lord, they can know that they have eternal life? It seems to me that a Lordship salvation person would say,"No, you cannot tell them that since you cannot see the future to tell how obediently they will submit to Christ's Lordship."
8/2/2009, 10:37 pm Link to this post Send Email to Bookworm88   Send PM to Bookworm88
 
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Re: Which is Correct?


quoting

Some people are going to have all the works of their life burned up and have no gold, silver, or precious stones to show for themselves, and yet they themselves would still be saved, yet so as by fire.


Some will. Others will hear, "I never knew you, away from Me you workers of iniquity."

quoting

If I witness to someone, can I tell them that TODAY, if they accept the Lord, they can know that they have eternal life? It seems to me that a Lordship salvation person would say,"No, you cannot tell them that since you cannot see the future to tell how obediently they will submit to Christ's Lordship."

I would say no for a different reason. We don't decide to be Christians, and Jesus certainly doesn't need our acceptance. We decide to agree with God that we are wicked, and that His wrath abides upon us and that we are completely deserving of nothing more than eternal punishment for breaking His law. We cry out to Him for mercy and Jesus accepts us. Salvation is of the Lord.

So, you may tell someone Biblically that if they repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ alone, that they have eternal life. And if it's really true, you will see evidence of that salvation through good works. Good works and submission that do not save, but are evidence of salvation.


---

Do you not know? Have you not heard? He gives strength to the weary. To those who hope in Him, they will soar like eagles. -RSJ

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Re: Which is Correct?


quoting

Order ofMelchizedek ...
 I would say no for a different reason. We don't decide to be Christians, and Jesus certainly doesn't need our acceptance. We decide to agree with God that we are wicked, and that His wrath abides upon us and that we are completely deserving of nothing more than eternal punishment for breaking His law. We cry out to Him for mercy and Jesus accepts us. Salvation is of the Lord.

I'm not sure I'm completely understanding your reason for saying "No." You say that "We don't decide to be Christians," and yet in the next sentence you say that we do "decide to agree with God." So is a decision necessary or isn't it? Can a person "decide to agree with God" that he is wicked and decide to "cry out to Him for mercy" and have Jesus NOT accept him?

quoting

So, you may tell someone Biblically that if they repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ alone, that they have eternal life. And if it's really true, you will see evidence of that salvation through good works. Good works and submission that do not save, but are evidence of salvation.

Yet some people's lives are completely turned around instantaneously, and in others it takes decades even for the Holy Spirit to bring lasting change. I do believe there is going to be changes in the life of the believer. Such changes are inevitable if one has truly decided to follow Christ, but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit happens when I first decide to accept Christ, and I don't have to have any works in ecidence in order to get the Holy Spirit. The works happen after I get the Holy Spirit. Therefore I see a distinction between the faith that is necessary for my Justification and the works that are a part of the process of my sanctification. The Lordship position seems to blur the two, making works part of the basis upon which Christ accepts me.

I do have to say, though, that it is easier to argue against the extreme positions of Free Grace and of Lordship salvation than it is to find the balance between the two. The extreme position of Free Grace is that a person can just say a prayer and think they are set for life spiritually no matter what they do. The extreme position of Lordship is that a person is not truly saved until after they have live a complete life of obedience to God. Both those extremes would be wrong. I just happen to lean more in the direction of Free Grace than of Lordship.
8/3/2009, 8:07 am Link to this post Send Email to Bookworm88   Send PM to Bookworm88
 
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Re: Which is Correct?


quoting

You say that "We don't decide to be Christians," and yet in the next sentence you say that we do "decide to agree with God."

Exactly. My point is, we don't say, "I'm going to be a Christian." It's not our choice. We believe God and what He says about us through the Bible. God makes us a Christian, we do not. He makes the conversion, not us deciding to do it. Does that make sense?

quoting

Yet some people's lives are completely turned around instantaneously, and in others it takes decades even for the Holy Spirit to bring lasting change.

I understand what you mean. But one of the tests of salvation is change. How much change? I don't know, that's up to how God is working in you. Are you more holy now than you were a year ago? Then you've got change.

quoting

I do have to say, though, that it is easier to argue against the extreme positions of Free Grace and of Lordship salvation than it is to find the balance between the two.

I agree with ya there! It seems that whichever one someone chooses, if you dig in a bit, you find that they're usually not that far apart, and are both in the middle somewhere. I tend to lean more towards the Lordship side.

You like to read, have you ever read MacArthur's book on the subject?

---

Do you not know? Have you not heard? He gives strength to the weary. To those who hope in Him, they will soar like eagles. -RSJ

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