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Moriah Cosmos
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Re: ¿Salvation?
baptism isn't a work. Why would Christ himself be baptized as an example for us if it wasn't important and essential?
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2/14/2008, 3:36 pm
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garycg
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Re: ¿Salvation?
Mark 16:16 quotes Jesus as saying: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (NKJV). Does this mean that salvation is by baptism?
"In no way does this verse establish baptism as a condition for salvation; it is merely the declaration that those who believe and are baptized are saved. Any act of obedience to the Lord could be added after the expression 'whoever believes' and it would remain a true statement, because salvation is the result of faith in Christ.
It should be noted that when the Lord added, 'but whoever does not believe will be condemned,' there is no mention of baptism. In identifying what would bring about condemnation, Jesus did not say that 'whoever believes but is not baptized shall not be save.' If baptism were necessary for salvation, there are many significant verses which should be amended to read 'you are saved through faith and baptism.' It is clear that faith in Jesus Christ is what saves a person (Acts 16:30-31; Eph. 2:8-9).
Baptism is a distinct act of obedience, apart from salvation. This is clarified by the order in which the words 'believe' and 'baptize' occur in the text (cf. Acts 2:38; 10:44-48). Baptism with the Spirit places believers into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13), while water baptism merely signifies to others that a person has professed Christ.
If you came upon a serious car wreck and a person was in minutes of dieing 100% no chance of saving his/her life, you ask this person if he/she was saved and they say no, you tell the person how he/she can be saved and they accept Christ as their savior and dies seconds later, is this person doomed for hell because they cant be baptized? God says "too bad" ? i think not.
You certainly can believe what you wish but you will never , ever convince me the person isn't saved at that point.
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2/14/2008, 4:31 pm
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Moriah Cosmos
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Re: ¿Salvation?
quoting
garycg ...
If you came upon a serious car wreck and a person was in minutes of dieing 100% no chance of saving his/her life, you ask this person if he/she was saved and they say no, you tell the person how he/she can be saved and they accept Christ as their savior and dies seconds later, is this person doomed for hell because they cant be baptized? God says "too bad" ? i think not.
You certainly can believe what you wish but you will never , ever convince me the person isn't saved at that point.
But the real question is would God accept someone that is confessing to believe in Him only when it comes down to the fact that they know they are about to die. Would he want someone who can't really repent? I mean look at someone that commits suicide. If they have been saved in the past, baptised even, they can't repent of the sin they committed by taking their own life. Now how is that different than the person acknowledging a belief in God on their death bed or accidental death?
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2/14/2008, 8:22 pm
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Order ofMelchizedek
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Re: ¿Salvation?
I think it says a lot that the Book written for the purpose of the assurance of salvation, doesn't mention baptism, as you first pointed out, Moriah.
The thief on the cross was not baptized, but repented and Jesus Himself told him that he would be with Him in paradise.
Now then, although baptism is not a necessity of salvation, do you know of anyone who is claiming to be a Christian, yet refusing to be baptized? I would ask that person why, and I would question their salvation. I mean, if you're going to willfully disobey the Lord, are you really saved?
Hello Dan, welcome to Harmony!  I've seen you lurking around some.
No, I am not saying that we can't have non believing friends, but we should definately have fellowship with other believers.
Of those unbelieving friends, hopefully, you are having some infulence on them. But if it becomes apparent that they are more of an influence on you, it might be time to distance yourself from those relationships.
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Carry me, I'm just a dead man lying on the carpet, can't find a heartbeat,
Make me breathe, I wanna be a new man, tired of the old one, out with the old plan - JoC
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2/14/2008, 11:05 pm
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Moriah Cosmos
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Re: ¿Salvation?
The thief on the cross was not baptized, but repented and Jesus Himself told him that he would be with Him in paradise.
The theif on the cross was still under the old law. I don't think we can use him as an example. But the Bible clearly shows in each conversion, a baptism and after that baptism is a show of Salvation and an adding to the Lord's Church and Body. I believe it is essential to Salvation and with out it and a full submission to God's word you can not be Saved.
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2/15/2008, 5:55 am
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DanTheMan1970
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Re: ¿Salvation?
"Of those unbelieving friends, hopefully, you are having some infulence on them""
LOL Well its funny that you put it that way - because I dont know that I would call myself an "unbeliever" but I have lots of doubt at times. Of course thats why I come here to read.
Thanks for the welcome
and for the record on the topic a LONG TIME AGO I WAS baptized because I was tought it was a req. for salvation.
It is a cleaning of our sins (or something like that from what I remember)
I also kind of agree with moriah I think the only reason some one would repent accept Christ as their lord and savior at the last min. is because they are scared of dying or what is to come.
Its kind of like a person holding a gun to your head and saying "Give me all your money" your going to do it because you are under duress.
ie. if you are about to die you are scared and "under duress" If you never lived or I should say tried to live as christ did and walk the walk I have my doubts that you can be saved 5 min. before your death.
I myself not walking the walk I should have for 15 years now if I die on the road going home tonight - even if I have time to say "lord forgive me for what I have done and not walking with you all these years Im not sure that will get me saved. If that makes sense.
One more time thank you for the warm welcome looking foward to lots of reading here
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"If you expect disappointment, and everything turns out ok you will never be disappointed" :)
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2/15/2008, 7:11 am
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Moriah Cosmos
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Re: ¿Salvation?
Romans doesn't speak of baptism? Is that the book you mean?
Romans 6:1-4
What then,should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more kindness?
Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it?
Or have you forgotten that when we became Christians and were baptized to become one with Christ Jesus,we died with him?
For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we may also live new lives.
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2/15/2008, 7:34 am
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Order ofMelchizedek
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Re: ¿Salvation?
quoting
The theif on the cross was still under the old law. I don't think we can use him as an example. But the Bible clearly shows in each conversion, a baptism and after that baptism is a show of Salvation and an adding to the Lord's Church and Body. I believe it is essential to Salvation and with out it and a full submission to God's word you can not be Saved.
The Old Law? What was that? The Ten Commandments? He hadn't kept them, he was a thief nailed to a cross for his crimes, he even admitted that he deserved it. He was saved by faith through grace, just like the rest of us.
I think we're just going to have to disagree on the baptsim thing. But, as I've stated, it would seem to be a moot point. Why the division? We all agree that we should be baptized. Who could call themselves a believer yet refuse to do so?
There's another command we should be in obedience to, as well. The last command Jesus gave was to carry out the Great Commission. Do you hold to that one as strongly as the baptism thing? When have you last shared your faith with someone?
quoting
LOL Well its funny that you put it that way - because I dont know that I would call myself an "unbeliever" but I have lots of doubt at times. Of course thats why I come here to read.
Well, we're glad you're here, but better than reading this message board would be to read the Bible - nothing compares, it is the written Word of God, and we should be reading it daily. It will strengthen your faith. quoting
and for the record on the topic a LONG TIME AGO I WAS baptized because I was tought it was a req. for salvation.
It is a cleaning of our sins (or something like that from what I remember)
Water will not cleanse your sins, only God can do that.
Here's something to think about. Do you believe that there are any people who have been baptized that are not truly saved?
And here's something else. What if someone becomes a believer, and they're ready to be baptized, but on the way to church, they are hit by a truck and killed. Do they go to heaven or hell? And why?
quoting
I also kind of agree with moriah I think the only reason some one would repent accept Christ as their lord and savior at the last min. is because they are scared of dying or what is to come.
We should be afraid, for it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. But we shouldn't come to Him out of fear, but out of gratitude for what He's done for us. God knows the heart, and He will know if a person is just "repenting" as an insurance policy against eternity in hell or if it's true repentence and trust in the Savior.
quoting
ie. if you are about to die you are scared and "under duress" If you never lived or I should say tried to live as christ did and walk the walk I have my doubts that you can be saved 5 min. before your death.
I believe it is possible, but I certainly wouldn't stake eternity on it. You are correct in that a lot of "death bed conversions" have been proven to be false. The person recovers and goes back to the same lifestyle they had before, they were obviously not truly repentant. And who's to say that you will have 5 minutes before your death to repent? Again, I'd say possible, but unlikely. Only God knows for sure.
quoting
I myself not walking the walk I should have for 15 years now if I die on the road going home tonight - even if I have time to say "lord forgive me for what I have done and not walking with you all these years Im not sure that will get me saved. If that makes sense.
It makes a lot of sense. I think there are a lot of people who believe, but are not following. But belief is not enough. In the Book of James, it tells us that even the demons believe ... and shudder. In order to be saved, we must repent, turn away from our sins, and trust in Jesus Christ alone for our salvation. When we do that, we will follow His Commands.
Have you checked out the The Good Person Test?
quoting
One more time thank you for the warm welcome looking foward to lots of reading here
We're glad to have you here!
I like your sig line. I've got a similar saying - "Hope for the best, but expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed."
Kind of an optimistic pessimist. Or a pessimistic optimist. Or something. 
quoting
Romans doesn't speak of baptism? Is that the book you mean?
No, I meant the Book of 1 John that states it was written for the purpose of assurance of salvation.
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Carry me, I'm just a dead man lying on the carpet, can't find a heartbeat,
Make me breathe, I wanna be a new man, tired of the old one, out with the old plan - JoC
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2/15/2008, 10:42 am
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Moriah Cosmos
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Re: ¿Salvation?
Well one of the best things is knowing that I will not be the one to judge, God will. So the person on the death bed is really a moot point, or anyone else other than myself for that matter.
But as a faithful Christian, one who reads the Bible and tries to follow what it says, I am certainly going to be a baptized believer and encourage others to do so as well.
I do find it shocking that you would teach only part of what the Bible teaches. What makes one part more important than another part? If someone believes what the Bible teaches, they have to believe all of it or none of it. You can't pick and choose which parts you want to follow and be a true follower. If a person desires to be a part of Christ's Body, the Church, that person must be baptized.
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2/15/2008, 11:09 am
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and even if I study my self I may come up with another answer LOL
