I have been studying https://bharmony.runboard.com/t622 Runboard| I have been studying en-us Thu, 28 Mar 2024 08:58:11 +0000 Thu, 28 Mar 2024 08:58:11 +0000 https://www.runboard.com/ rssfeeds_managingeditor@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds managing editor) rssfeeds_webmaster@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds webmaster) akBBS 60 Re: I have been studyinghttps://bharmony.runboard.com/p5964,from=rss#post5964https://bharmony.runboard.com/p5964,from=rss#post5964Still studying..... nondisclosed_email@example.com (Free04)Sun, 13 Apr 2008 05:49:07 +0000 Re: I have been studyinghttps://bharmony.runboard.com/p5961,from=rss#post5961https://bharmony.runboard.com/p5961,from=rss#post5961Pastor Junior has a great point too, that's why I don't believe in predestination of the soul, though scripture may often make it seem as if it there. though scripture doesn't contradict itself, I admit in this subject it seems it does, but only because our knowledge is not as great as His and therefore we don't fully understand what we read, atleast not everything. I think when the bible says "predestination" it doesn't necessarily have the meaning we give it. not sure if it was the bible verse quoted earlier (the long one), but in the bible it has a verse that spearks of men and their ways (can't remember it exactly), only thing I remember for sure is the end of it "to which they were also predestined for.." (I may have paraphrased it). I will have to look it up to have the exact wording. First thing we should really try to come down to is, what does scripture mean by "predestined". what is the actual meaning within the context. because like P.J. said, if all who will be saved are saved no matter what why not do whatever we please? the bible teaches us to guard our salvation, obviously it can be lost then. it also says "let no one steal it from you" meaning it can be gained as well.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Joseap84)Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:48:37 +0000 Re: I have been studyinghttps://bharmony.runboard.com/p5959,from=rss#post5959https://bharmony.runboard.com/p5959,from=rss#post5959  Hi Guys, Well if one really believed in predestination or in other words everything is already decided for everybody then why would you worry about what you are doing. I mean if all those who are going to be saved are already decided then no matter what you do at the right time God is going to save you, so lets all go party, have orgies, or anything else we want to do. Because if God is going to save you it is predestined and it don't matter what you do and if you are predestined for Hell Well then there is nothing that you can do about it!!!   So if for the sake of argument this is true what do you do with the following verse. For God So Loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlastin life.   Yes I believe that some are predestined such as John the Baptist who moved in his mothers belly when he heard Mary's voice. And what about Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, and even David, or Moses.   And Jesus even says that He chose the twelve disciples at one point but then he says that none are lost that His Father had Given Him but the son of perdition.   These are the things that I believe that make both parts of the Bible true. Some are predestined and God wants us to know that but all the rest of us have a free will choice and God wants us to know that.   And back to my earlier example if every thing is predestined then why do we worry about cancer, disease, driving too fast, or drunk drivers because I can't die until my predestined time.   Are some things predestined? You better believe it. David was supposed to be there but so was Goliath. Moses was supposed to be there but so was Pharoh. You could go on and on with this but the fact is some things and some people are predestined but all the other things and people are not and that is why we have free will choice. May All The Blessings 0f Heaven Be Yours!!! AMEN!!! Pastor Junior nondisclosed_email@example.com (Pastor Junior)Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:24:02 +0000 Re: I have been studyinghttps://bharmony.runboard.com/p5952,from=rss#post5952https://bharmony.runboard.com/p5952,from=rss#post5952Hey guys, Glad ya'll joined in. I would really like to put this to rest in my mind. Seems every time I think I have come to a conclusion I take a step backwards and start all over again...Man that is frustrating. I have prayed soooo hard over this. Mel, you make a lot of good points that I agree with and by the way I'm not Calvinist or Arminian. The Calvinist view is of unconditional election which is the belief that God predestined people for salvation before time and God's election is not conditioned by anything that man does. It is God's sovereign choice. (The scriptures I posted earlier back this up). So I believe at this point MacArthur's statement "If we deny the teaching of predestination then we deny a biblical teaching is a correct statement. (Truth) So to me the issue is not whether the Bible teaches predestination or not (It does) the issue becomes what does it mean to predestined or elect? Stay made a good point too in saying all things work together for the good of Gods will (Romans 8) but is followed by, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. (here we go again) I am beginning to think where I am getting stuck is with the words free-will as it relates to salvation. Is free-will a direct contradiction to Gods Sovereignty? Is free-will a philosophical term that we should not use? (as it relates to salvation) I would like to take this slow, because that is what I am. So comments on Unconditional election and free-will would be a great start then we can move into the Arminian view of Conditional election. Clear as mud.?... Yea..Me too. NOTnondisclosed_email@example.com (Free04)Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:29:10 +0000 Re: I have been studyinghttps://bharmony.runboard.com/p5951,from=rss#post5951https://bharmony.runboard.com/p5951,from=rss#post5951For ease in discussion, here are the verses that Free gave: Jn. 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. Jn. 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." Jn. 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. Jn 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Now, this one's kind of long, so I'll just link you there. Rom 9:8-29 However, Scripture is used in backing both the idea of predestination as well as free will. This is why I believe in both, although beyond our current understanding. There is tons of stuff on the internet for this topic, but be careful. Search for "Calvinism" "Predestination" "Free will" or "TULIP" and you'll be overwhelmed by the mountains of info. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:57:16 +0000 Re: I have been studyinghttps://bharmony.runboard.com/p5947,from=rss#post5947https://bharmony.runboard.com/p5947,from=rss#post5947Wow, Free, you just wander back in after an extended leave of absence with a giant theological train-wreck topic like this? Most civilized places would avoid this one, as it can rarely be discussed without getting ugly. But we're not so civilized around here, are we? We're not afraid of a little controversial debate, and I don't think we have any really strong views on either side here. I guess we'll see. I don't consider myself a Calvinist, but I do listen to some preaching and Biblical council from some who do. I have also had some online debates with some of the most hateful, arrogant and self-righteous people who ever claimed that they were Christian ... and Calvinist. They treated me worse than a lot of the skeptic boards I've been to. But when I discovered an Arminian board (the other extreme, following Josephus Arminius), and they were just as condescending and mean with their view. So, I believe they are both wrong when taken to the extreme, and the only label I need is that of "Christian." With all that said, I do have some good friends who are strong Calvinists, and there is a lot of Biblical truth within it. As I've been studying different Biblical topics, I find myself understanding and coming closer and closer to their beliefs, although I still wouldn't call myself a Calvinist at this point. God is sovereign, there is no doubt. But He also gives man a certain amount of "free-will" within that sovereignty. I see this kind of like with my children. They are considered free, but their free-will is not going to over-ride my sovereignty in my house - at least not until they become teenagers, then this analogy fails. As John MacArthur says, "If we deny predestination, we deny something in the Bible. If we deny man's freedom and accountability for his choices, we deny something in the Bible. You cannot deny one or the other without destroying both. So just leave them both there." There is a divine tension that we will not completely understand, this side of heaven. I found this picture long ago, and thought it sums it up quiet nicely. Here's what it comes down to, in my view. If everything is predestined, and only those who God has elected will be saved, and every one of them will be, where does that leave evangelism? What is the point of the Great Commission? I was just thinking about this yesterday, and the Lord gave me a thought: Once again, it involves my kids. My two year old likes to help unload the dishwasher (Now, by the time a kid is actually old enough to be of some sort of help, they just don't want to any more). But anyway, she likes to help. I don't need her help. In fact, it goes a lot easier and faster if she doesn't help. I don't know where her grubby little fingers have been that are getting all over my silverware, it gets dropped on the floor a few times, and I've got to make sure she doesn't get hold of a steak knife. But I let her help. I want her to learn, to prepare for life, to develop her character, and to realize the importance of work and helping others. There's so much more to this than simply unloading the dishwasher! It's the same way with us and God. He doesn't need our help. Everyone that will be saved, He will save, with or without our "help." Even though it would be much more efficient without us, He wants us to learn, to grow and mature spiritually, and all things are done for the good of those who love Him. I feel that there is a purpose that we are on this earth, learning and growing, preparing for something. I don't know what that something is. I just trust in the Father's wisdom, love and perfect will, and pray that He will make me obedient and grow me into the man He created me to be. Salvation is of the Lord, and Him alone. When someone asks me if I'm trying to convert them, I tell them, "No, I do not have that power, only God can do that." I was listening to Paul Washer the other day, and he quoted the Bible where it says that the message is foolishness to those who are perishing. The Gospel makes no sense at all to the natural man, it is only understood by the spirit. God makes it make sense. And He doesn't need us to do it. But He allows us the great honor of bringing glory to His Name by preaching His Word, and working through us to draw others to Himself for their salvation. We were created to bring God glory, and we will all do that in one of two ways. We will either demonstrate His glory through His infinite love, mercy and grace in salvation through repentance and trust in Jesus Christ, or we'll demonstrate His glory by His holy, righteous justice through the wrath of eternal hell that each and every one of us deserves. And God already knows how that will play out in each and every one of our lives. He stands outside of time and space, not limited by it as we are. He knows the end from the beginning. So, while sovereign, all-knowing and all-powerful, He still allows us a certain freedom of choice for which we will be held accountable. Clear as mud? It is for me! nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:16:30 +0000 Re: I have been studyinghttps://bharmony.runboard.com/p5946,from=rss#post5946https://bharmony.runboard.com/p5946,from=rss#post5946Howdy Jose, great to see you back. I'm reading along, but as with you I am a bit confused about it as well. Knowing that all things work toward the will of God, I must think that there is a reason all those people are born even though God knows they will not follow Him. Maybe they are needed to get his elect to wake-up and realize their need for God (but I can't support that with scripture).nondisclosed_email@example.com (Staybrite)Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:11:21 +0000 Re: I have been studyinghttps://bharmony.runboard.com/p5939,from=rss#post5939https://bharmony.runboard.com/p5939,from=rss#post5939quotingJoseap84 ... VERY interesting topic here yet as you said very controversial as well. Hi it has been extremly long since I been here and eve nwhen I was it was for a very short time, let me introduce myself once more. My name is Jose and I live in Florida. now about your topic here: Correct me if I am wrong, but these passage basically are saying that the human call to salvation begins with God. In other words, we didn't find Him, He found us. He calls ALL humanity to him but not all choose to respond to the call. as for predistanation, it is hard to speak of it, before we are born- he knows if we will choose to live for Him or not, why then give birth to everyone? very good question and not one that should be taken lightly. I will not try to answer it because I haven't got the answer. But hopefully someone can enlighten us on this matter, (using the biblical text) Hi Jose, Glad to see you back. I have been away as well. I'm glad I'm not the only one that is confused with this. I'm not so sure that these passages are a call for All Humanity or not. That is why I wanted to bring this topic to discussion. Hopefully we will get some others here to join in and we can come to an understanding of truth...Biblically as you say. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Free04)Thu, 10 Apr 2008 03:41:16 +0000 Re: I have been studyinghttps://bharmony.runboard.com/p5936,from=rss#post5936https://bharmony.runboard.com/p5936,from=rss#post5936VERY interesting topic here yet as you said very controversial as well. Hi it has been extremly long since I been here and eve nwhen I was it was for a very short time, let me introduce myself once more. My name is Jose and I live in Florida. now about your topic here: Correct me if I am wrong, but these passage basically are saying that the human call to salvation begins with God. In other words, we didn't find Him, He found us. He calls ALL humanity to him but not all choose to respond to the call. as for predistanation, it is hard to speak of it, before we are born- he knows if we will choose to live for Him or not, why then give birth to everyone? very good question and not one that should be taken lightly. I will not try to answer it because I haven't got the answer. But hopefully someone can enlighten us on this matter, (using the biblical text) nondisclosed_email@example.com (Joseap84)Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:11:12 +0000 I have been studyinghttps://bharmony.runboard.com/p5933,from=rss#post5933https://bharmony.runboard.com/p5933,from=rss#post5933I know that is scary, but I have. What happened to everyone around here....Vanished? Oh well, I hope everyone comes back to discuss this. It is controversial throughout the Christian community, some even believe it is mystery. I am beginning to wonder. The doctrine of predestination. Does the Bible teach this. I have a hard time accepting some beliefs. Such as the Calvinist view of Unconditional election and total depravity. To me the Calvinist view would tell us that God predestines people to Hell....I really want to throw away the thought that God would create a being just to sent them to hell, but we must be honest with ourselves. Read these passages before responding: Jn. 6:44 Jn. 6:65 Jn. 6:37 Jn 15:16 Rom 9:8-29 There are more, but we can start with these. To me these scriptures clearly teach the Calvinist view of election. A view that I don't want to accept, but I do want to understand truth. Help!!!!!!!!nondisclosed_email@example.com (Free04)Wed, 09 Apr 2008 15:23:36 +0000