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Registered: 07-2006
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Re: The Good Test


quoting

Yes, for the most part. God created me good, and actually, since I am a human, it would be hard for me to be a "bad" human, so it would be just as hard to be a bad person.


Yeah, it’s fun to play with words, yet Scripture tells us that none are found good, not one. It says that none seek after God and that all have turned away. So, either you’re wrong or the Bible is wrong. Which do you think it is?
quoting

Guilty? Of what? Of being human? Sign me up. List me under human. Neither. I'm going into the Arms of God, into His Heart.


Guilty of breaking God’s law. What makes you think that you’re going into the Arms of God, and into His Heart?
quoting

Yes, and no. I don't believe in a "heaven", so I'm not into going to a place. Of course God forgives me.


What do you think happens to a person’s soul after they die? On what basis do you think that God forgives you?
quoting

You say no, but that doesn't make it true. Punishing the man severely wouldn't be just either.


You say that, yet that doesn’t make it true, either. What do you base your beliefs on?
quoting

I like true justice better: "Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other." Zechariah 7:9-10


Jesus said, “Go and sin no more.” Are you living in sinless perfection?
quoting

True justice rights the wrong and forgives the offender. Thankfully, God is actually just and not a vengeful monster.


What is "justice"? Determine what "punishment" is, and the definition of "forgiveness" and we may come to an understanding. But right now, I think we have different definitions of these words.
quoting

I know what some people think he did for us. I also know that God is Love. I will always maintain that no one deserves to go to hell. You know what hell is, don't you? No one deserves that. If anyone did, one of us will go there and save them... wait, Jesus did that already... but, it wasn't enough. Crap. Oh, well.


How does the sacrifice of Jesus pertain to you? Do you believe that hell exists? How can hell exist and heaven not exist?
quoting

I live in a different world than you. In my world, all criminals need to be healed, forgiven, and reconciled. In my world, Love does that without conditions.
Reward and punishment...baaah!!


I think you’ve made up a nice little fantasy land, but as you mentioned earlier, that doesn’t make it true. As a matter of fact, you’ve broken that 2nd Commandment by making up a god for yourself, fashioned after your own image. Unfortunately, that god doesn’t exist. The one true God has revealed Himself to us in Scripture.
quoting

Yeah, death. Remember, everyone is still going to die. It doesn't say the wages of sin is eternal hell.


It is appointed a man once to die, and then the judgment.
quoting

I don't have to "obey"... what is written as a law in the Bible is a part of love, so it comes from my heart, not out of obedience.


The human heart is deceitful and wicked, who can understand it? And Jesus said, “Why do you call Me Lord but don’t do what I say?”
I’ll tell you this, if you don’t obey, He’s not your Lord, and if He’s not your Lord, He’s not your Savior, either. And if He’s not your Savior, then you will be judged on your own thoughts and actions on that day of judgment. How will you do when held to God’s moral standard of perfection?
quoting

There's what I think of the good test.


It’s all Biblical. Maybe you should reconsider and take it more seriously. But that’s up to you.

quoting

Nuts, it isn't working. I can't get terrified of my Beloved knowing my thoughts... but then again, there is no fear in love.


Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

quoting

The only time I can imagine that His love is undeserved is if I am worthless, and if I go there, well, most times I want to die, so I'd really rather not believe God's love for me is undeserved.


We are not worthless, every human being is made in the image of God. Yet, we are fallen, due to sin. If there is something within myself that makes me worthy, then Jesus Christ died in vain. There is nothing good in me, and yet God offers His love and mercy. That is amazing!

quoting

Actually, I'd rather believe that God's love has nothing to do with deserving.


It doesn’t. His love is completely undeserved. All we deserve is His wrath and punishment for breaking His law, and yet, while we were still sinners, He died for us. How do you make that sacrifice pertain to you?

quoting

We are alive, aware, and telling me that I don't deserve God's love would be like telling me that my cat doesn't deserve my love, which is just the silliest thing ever. The love is inherent in the existence.


No, it’s nothing like that. Has your cat willfully rebelled against everything you’ve ever set in place for it? Does your cat bite your hand every time you feed it?

Beside all this, did you create your cat, and make it in your own image? Did you give your cat dominion over everything else you’ve created from nothing, and then your cat denies your very existence and makes up a new master for itself?
  


---

Do you not know? Have you not heard? He gives strength to the weary. To those who hope in Him, they will soar like eagles. -RSJ

8/31/2009, 12:12 am Link to this post Send PM to Order ofMelchizedek
 
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Re: The Good Test


quoting

Order ofMelchizedek ...
Scripture tells us that none are found good, not one.



It also says that God created man and he was found to be very good.

quoting

It says that none seek after God and that all have turned away.



That's obviously an overgeneralization to make a point, not the absolute truth.

quoting

So, either you’re wrong or the Bible is wrong. Which do you think it is?



The Bible, obviously. emoticon

quoting

What makes you think that you’re going into the Arms of God, and into His Heart?



Because that's what my heart's desire is. I do not want a golden city or jewels or rewards of any type.
 
quoting

What do you think happens to a person’s soul after they die? On what basis do you think that God forgives you?



I think a lot happens to a soul after they die, and they get the chance to be reincarnated or to remain in the bliss of the Oneness of God.
The basis that God is Love. And Love forgives without conditions.

quoting

What do you base your beliefs on?



I base my beliefs on my experiences and studies. I base my belief in justice upon what brings all into healing and reconcilitation, on what is best for all.

quoting

Jesus said, “Go and sin no more.” Are you living in sinless perfection?



I am perfectly imperfect.

quoting

What is "justice"?



Justice is what I already wrote, merciful and compassionate. It is the righting of wrongs-not the making of more wrongs. It is the healing of all.

quoting

Determine what "punishment" is, and the definition of "forgiveness" and we may come to an understanding. But right now, I think we have different definitions of these words.



Punishment has been doing wrong unto the wrongdoer-an eye for an eye.
Definitely we do.

quoting

How does the sacrifice of Jesus pertain to you? Do you believe that hell exists? How can hell exist and heaven not exist?



Jesus' death/sacrifice pertains to me when I am in metaphor mode. No, I do not believe that hell exists except as a state of mind.

quoting

I think you’ve made up a nice little fantasy land, but as you mentioned earlier, that doesn’t make it true.



Of course not, but unlike you, I did not say my world is fact.

 
quoting

As a matter of fact, you’ve broken that 2nd Commandment by making up a god for yourself, fashioned after your own image.



Aw, no, you just did what most of the Christians do, which never gets them anywhere. You see, I think it is your God who is fashioned after your own image, not mine. Your God is vengeful and hateful and punishes and rewards- He is the resemblance of humanity. My God is Love, the eternal spring from which all of Creation flows. My God is not in the image of me.

quoting

Unfortunately, that god doesn’t exist.



Oh, this gets you somewhere. Really. Sure. Neither does yours. There, wasn't that a lovely dialogue? Didn't that teach us both that my god and your god don't exist? No... oh, then why did you write that? (I'm sorry, I always get very agitated when someone says that my perception of God doesn't exist.)

quoting

The human heart is deceitful and wicked, who can understand it?



Maybe the heart of psychopaths is deceitful and wicked, but every human that I know is loving and their heart is based in love. Sure, they have been wounded, and this creates walls of defense that lead to anger and hatred, but the essence of a real human's heart is love.

quoting

I’ll tell you this, if you don’t obey, He’s not your Lord, and if He’s not your Lord, He’s not your Savior, either.



And, I'll tell you this, he who loves is born of God and knows God. One doesn't need to obey something or someone if they are in love with them. It is written in my soul. I can follow the laws without obeying.

quoting

And if He’s not your Savior, then you will be judged on your own thoughts and actions on that day of judgment. How will you do when held to God’s moral standard of perfection?



If hell exists, I will go to hell.
  
quoting

It’s all Biblical. Maybe you should reconsider and take it more seriously. But that’s up to you.



I took it quite seriously enough. I once believed in hell. I once believed, but then I met my Beloved, and everything changed. I shall not return.

quoting

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.



That means respect, not being afraid.

quoting

No, it’s nothing like that. Has your cat willfully rebelled against everything you’ve ever set in place for it? Does your cat bite your hand every time you feed it?



If it did, I would know its wounds, and there would still be no thought of deserving.

quoting

Beside all this, did you create your cat, and make it in your own image? Did you give your cat dominion over everything else you’ve created from nothing, and then your cat denies your very existence and makes up a new master for itself?



Even if I had, and even if it did, I would understand, for I made it that way. I would know, and it would always have my love.
  




Last edited by Casstranquility, 8/31/2009, 1:40 pm


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8/31/2009, 1:34 pm Link to this post Send Email to Casstranquility   Send PM to Casstranquility Blog
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Re: The Good Test


quoting

It also says that God created man and he was found to be very good.


Yes, and then man sinned, and now there are none found good, we are now fallen and under the curse of sin.
quoting

That's obviously an overgeneralization to make a point, not the absolute truth.


No, it says it numerous times.

 Romans 3:12
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Ecclesiastes 7:20
There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

Psalm 14:3
All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Psalm 53:3
Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.


quoting

Because that's what my heart's desire is. I do not want a golden city or jewels or rewards of any type.


Ah, so you create your own afterlife. Why do you think you have that kind of power? And have you used this power here on earth to get things to go your way? I’d be curious how that’s working for you.
quoting

I think a lot happens to a soul after they die, and they get the chance to be reincarnated or to remain in the bliss of the Oneness of God.
The basis that God is Love. And Love forgives without conditions.


Well, that’s far from what the Bible says. Christianity doesn’t teach any such thing.

quoting

Punishment has been doing wrong unto the wrongdoer-an eye for an eye.



From Dictionary.com
quoting

pun⋅ish⋅ment –noun
3. a penalty inflicted for an offense, fault, etc.

jus⋅tice –noun
1. the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.
2. rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.
3. the moral principle determining just conduct.
4. conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.
5. the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
6. the maintenance or administration of what is just by law, as by judicial or other proceedings: a court of justice.
7. judgment of persons or causes by judicial process: to administer justice in a community.

for⋅give⋅ness –noun
1. act of forgiving; state of being forgiven.
2. disposition or willingness to forgive.

for⋅give –verb (used with object)
1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies.
5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on a loan.



quoting

Jesus' death/sacrifice pertains to me when I am in metaphor mode.


Either it pertains or it doesn’t. Without Christ, you’ll be judged by your own thoughts, deeds and words. How will you do?
quoting

No, I do not believe that hell exists except as a state of mind.


That doesn’t change the fact that it does, exactly as described in the Bible.
quoting

Of course not, but unlike you, I did not say my world is fact.


Neither do I. The Bible does, and that’s my authority, my source where I get my information.

quoting

Aw, no, you just did what most of the Christians do, which never gets them anywhere. You see, I think it is your God who is fashioned after your own image, not mine. Your God is vengeful and hateful and punishes and rewards- He is the resemblance of humanity. My God is Love, the eternal spring from which all of Creation flows. My God is not in the image of me.


Since you have a misunderstanding of who God is, you make up one for yourself, a warm, fuzzy lover, a doting grandpa, a Santa Claus type who will just laugh and overlook all of your rebellion. I tell you, that particular god does not exist. Read your Bible.

quoting

Oh, this gets you somewhere. Really. Sure. Neither does yours. There, wasn't that a lovely dialogue? Didn't that teach us both that my god and your god don't exist? No... oh, then why did you write that? (I'm sorry, I always get very agitated when someone says that my perception of God doesn't exist.)


It’s quite all right. I said that because your perception has nothing to back it – it’s just your perception, you’ve made it up. My idea of God comes strictly from Scripture, where He has revealed Himself to all of humanity. I’m not meaning to agitate you, but do you have anything outside of yourself that gives us any authoritative information about God?

quoting

Maybe the heart of psychopaths is deceitful and wicked, but every human that I know is loving and their heart is based in love. Sure, they have been wounded, and this creates walls of defense that lead to anger and hatred, but the essence of a real human's heart is love.


You don’t read the news, do you?

quoting

And, I'll tell you this, he who loves is born of God and knows God. One doesn't need to obey something or someone if they are in love with them. It is written in my soul. I can follow the laws without obeying.


God is not your boyfriend, He’s a holy, righteous and just God who has created everything for His glory. He flooded the entire earth due to the wickedness of mankind, He killed a husband and wife in the NT for a single lie. How many lies have you told?
quoting

If hell exists, I will go to hell.


And that thought doesn’t concern you at all?
   
quoting

I took it quite seriously enough. I once believed in hell. I once believed, but then I met my Beloved, and everything changed. I shall not return.


You’ve been deceived.
quoting

That means respect, not being afraid.


It says “fear” not “respect” and it says it more than once. Every time an angel was seen in the Bible, people were afraid. Now that’s just an angel. How much more should you fear the Creator of everything? Scripture says it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God, and it says to fear Him who can kill the body and throw your soul into hell.
quoting

Even if I had, and even if it did, I would understand, for I made it that way. I would know, and it would always have my love.


Maybe so. But the God who created us has also revealed Himself to us through Scripture, and has told us what is required of us. His law is written on our hearts, but some suppress that knowledge.
   



---

Do you not know? Have you not heard? He gives strength to the weary. To those who hope in Him, they will soar like eagles. -RSJ

8/31/2009, 10:53 pm Link to this post Send PM to Order ofMelchizedek
 
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Re: The Good Test


quoting


Ah, so you create your own afterlife. Why do you think you have that kind of power?



No, I create my own perception of the afterlife. emoticon It would be impossible to create my own afterlife, since I am not dead.

quoting

And have you used this power here on earth to get things to go your way?



I do not have any power.

quoting

Well, that’s far from what the Bible says. Christianity doesn’t teach any such thing.



I am having a hard time understanding your point. emoticon I am a Pantheist, who loves Jesus, not a Christian. I don't hold the Bible to be infallible, and I am only telling you what I think, which is what you asked for. emoticon

quoting

Either it pertains or it doesn’t. Without Christ, you’ll be judged by your own thoughts, deeds and words. How will you do?



It all depends. And I don't care, either.

quoting

That doesn’t change the fact that it does, exactly as described in the Bible.



Ah, this is why we are not having a discussion. Everything you write is "fact"... we're never going to have a nice talk like that... remember, I also think that much of what I believe is fact.

quoting

Bible does, and that’s my authority, my source where I get my information.



Okay, you get your information from a book, who says the book is fact? The book?

quoting

you make up one for yourself, a warm, fuzzy lover, a doting grandpa, a Santa Claus type who will just laugh and overlook all of your rebellion. I tell you, that particular god does not exist. Read your Bible.



Warm and fuzzy?!!! Love is not warm and fuzzy except when it is. You misunderstand, I do not have a man in the sky God. My God is Everything. I can constantly tell you that your God doesn't exist either, but as you well know, it doesn't mean anything.

quoting

I said that because your perception has nothing to back it – it’s just your perception, you’ve made it up.



That's what everyone does. emoticon

quoting

My idea of God comes strictly from Scripture, where He has revealed Himself to all of humanity.



I'm sorry your god is so small. Only revealed Himself to a few people, and all of that revelation only takes up a small book?

quoting

I’m not meaning to agitate you, but do you have anything outside of yourself that gives us any authoritative information about God?



Yes, of course, Nature. And other people's ideas about God-which are in the religions' scriptures.

quoting

You don’t read the news, do you?



Not often, no. Usually, if I do, I do not think humans are evil, just dumb. I also study psychology.

quoting

God is not your boyfriend



You are really beginning to lose me. Of course God isn't my boyfriend. I just happen to really love God.

quoting

How many lies have you told?



I don't lie. If you want to count deception or jokes, fine, but it still makes no difference to me.

quoting

And that thought doesn’t concern you at all?



How could it really concern me? I don't believe in hell, in order to even pretend it exists I must pretend to be unloved by God, and pretend to hate God, and if all this must be so for me to imagine going to hell, then hell is where I belong if it exists.
    
quoting

You’ve been deceived.



No, no I haven't. But, nice of you to say so, even though it is a pointless remark which I can't even figure out why you would put it there. We disagree, it is sure that I already know that you think I am wrong. By saying I have been deceived, you are not going to have me go "Oh, no, I have been decieved! What horror! Quick, I'd better right my ways and follow Mel's beliefs!" That would never happen.

quoting

How much more should you fear the Creator of everything?



I shouldn't. But, maybe there are some people who should.

quoting

Scripture says it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God, and it says to fear Him who can kill the body and throw your soul into hell.



Aw, well, that sucks. I rather like loving God and being held gently in His "everlasting arms".

Let's just stop here. I was just expressing my opinion. I do not wish to have my beliefs bashed around nor to bash yours. We disagree. It will remain that way.



Last edited by Casstranquility, 9/2/2009, 3:07 pm


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Re: The Good Test


Alright, fair enough. We disagree, no hard feelings.

Thanks for sharing your beliefs. I'm still trying to understand, and I think I'm getting closer!

emoticon

---

Do you not know? Have you not heard? He gives strength to the weary. To those who hope in Him, they will soar like eagles. -RSJ

9/2/2009, 3:18 pm Link to this post Send PM to Order ofMelchizedek
 
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Re: The Good Test


quoting

Order ofMelchizedek ...
Thanks for sharing your beliefs. I'm still trying to understand, and I think I'm getting closer!



You are welcome. emoticon If you really want to understand... well, it might be helpful if you didn't point out so often how wrong you think I am. emoticon

 emoticon

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Re: The Good Test


 emoticon

Where did you learn all this stuff, Casstranquility?

Do you attend a church somewheres?

You really think that you're right and the Bible is wrong?

Have you been born again? Do you read the Bible? Does God speak to you through the scriptures?

Hebrews 4:12- “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”


 emoticon
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Re: The Good Test


Hi, notanimposter. emoticon

I will answer your questions today, but I won't be around much anymore (computer difficulties!) and I have found that certain types of discussions undermine my well-being.

quoting

notanimpostor ...
Where did you learn all this stuff, Casstranquility?



I learned it from books and nature and God and life and people and animals and love...

quoting

Do you attend a church somewheres?



Sometimes.

quoting

You really think that you're right and the Bible is wrong?



I think Love is right. I think I am right when I align with Love. I think the Bible is right when it aligns with Love. That is possible, and so, the Bible doesn't have to be wrong, only not always literally true.

quoting

Have you been born again? Do you read the Bible? Does God speak to you through the scriptures?



Not as you mean it. I was raised a Christian, there was no born again experience. Yes, I read the Bible. Yes, God speaks to me through the scriptures.

Thank you for being curious.

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Re: The Good Test


quoting

Casstranquility ...
and I have found that certain types of discussions undermine my well-being.


Well, then don't participate in those types of discussions. I mean it. You really don't have to answer any question that you don't want to answer. I'd rather have you hang around, and respond to threads like "Pets" or "Board Games," than have you disappear entirely. Some Christians might think it is a good thing if an unsaved person's well-being is undermined, and in some cases it actually might be a good thing, but for other people, their shattered well-being becomes a scar that keeps them from wanting to hear about Christ further. You might just need to build up more of a friendship with the people here before those "certain types of discussions" can become comfortable. All I'm saying is that I hope you don't leave entirely.

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Re: The Good Test


quoting

Bookworm88 ...

quoting

Casstranquility ...
and I have found that certain types of discussions undermine my well-being.


Well, then don't participate in those types of discussions. I mean it. You really don't have to answer any question that you don't want to answer. I'd rather have you hang around, and respond to threads like "Pets" or "Board Games," than have you disappear entirely. Some Christians might think it is a good thing if an unsaved person's well-being is undermined, and in some cases it actually might be a good thing, but for other people, their shattered well-being becomes a scar that keeps them from wanting to hear about Christ further. You might just need to build up more of a friendship with the people here before those "certain types of discussions" can become comfortable. All I'm saying is that I hope you don't leave entirely.




I agree.

I avoid a lot of those conversations because they cause me to get frustrated (and even angry) and cause me to sin. So I tend to avoid them. Not because I don't care, but because I don't want to feel bad and alienate others (and have to apologize daily)

---
Peace, that brief period in history when everyone stops to reload.
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