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Bookworm88 Profile
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Re: Prophecy in the Bible


quoting

BornAgain9 ...
Acts names a Theudas: "Some time ago Theudas came forward, claiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him. But he was killed and his whole following was broken up and disappeared. After him came Judas the Galilean at the time of the census; he induced some people to revolt under his leadership, but he too perished and his whole following was scattered. And so now: keep clear of these men, I tell you; leave them alone....

They took his advice. They sent for the apostles and had them flogged; then they order them to give up speaking in the name of Jesus..." (Acts 5:36 ff).

Bookworm, obviously there was more than one message being proclaimed and if Acts is correct many were paying it heed. It seems to have been a call to open revolt against the political authorities.

Well. we can look at the passage in Acts and see exactly what the message was. Act 5:27-32 says
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, 28 saying, “Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man’s blood on us!”
29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

The message was that Jesus had already been exalted to the position of Prince and Saviour and that Jesus could give forgiveness of sins. In other words, the sacrificial system still used by the religious leaders was no longer needed, and it was the religious leaders that had murdered Jesus. The religious leaders certainly did not like that doctrine being spread to the people. The message Peter and the other apostles were giving was NOT one of rebellion against Rome but one of rebellion against the religous practices of the Jews, since those religious practices were no longer necessary for salvation. So what could the religious leaders do about this message of God's forgiveness that was being spread? According to Acts 5, they couldn't do anything about it if the message was from God, and the passage uses the FAILURES of the Zealot movements to prove that point. Look at all these Zealot people who were killed and their cause was scattered. They didn't have God behind them or they would not have been defeated. Sure, Jesus was put to death, but His CAUSE was not defeated, since His cause was not about removing Rome but about offering forgiveness to people without the sacrificial system in place anymore. If you count the high priest and the council as political authorities, then I suppose you could say that the rebellion was against political authorities, but those are the only political authorites that Jesus, and later Peter and the other apostles, spoke against.

 
quoting

Who were the disciples who were flogged? Were they from among those who had known Jesus or were they from those who learned of Christ's message from Paul?

The religious leaders of the time persecuted both Jesus and Paul. They had made sure Jesus was put to death by lying about his loyalties to the Romans, and they were constantly againt Peter, Paul, and all the other apostles.

  
quoting

Paul had a message of co-operation in regard the Romans. James, and I don't think Jesus, would have bought into this message of peace with the enemy. One of the best pieces of evidence for this is that the Roman state had him crucified, like the Galileans before him.

Satan is the enemy in the New Testament.

We have a clear message of subjection to governmental authorities from Jesus, and the only support for your position that you can come up with is the figurative use of swords to describe defense against religious persecution, ONE Zealot, a bit of thunder, Christianity causing divisions between Israelite family members, and Romans executing a person after falling for the lies of the religious leaders. That is not much support at all for the idea that Jesus was proclaiming a message of rebellion against Rome.
7/20/2011, 10:48 pm Link to this post Send Email to Bookworm88   Send PM to Bookworm88
 
gnastynate Profile
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Re: Prophecy in the Bible


quoting

BornAgain9 ...

quoting

Bookworm88 ...
quoting

BornAgain9 ...
Using his genealogy Jesus or James could have made claims to the throne of David.... I had not considered this line of argument earlier, but it fits with the claim in Luke 24:21 that "Our own hope had been that he would be the one to set Israel free." And where would the disciples have gotten that view if not from the historical Jesus?


They did get it from Jesus. I haven't been denying that. They just misunderstood the timing of when it was all going to happen.



You see, I find this very difficult to understand. The disciples were Jesus' intimate followers – his Apostles. How could they have misunderstood?



In my own mind, it was due to the fact that they were their mother's and father's children and they shared the same beliefs that most everyone else of the time did. There is also every indication that most of the apostles were not learned men.

quoting

One of their number number was "Simon who was called the Zealot" (Luke 6:16), and lest we forget Acts too mentions this: "Simon the Zealot" (Acts 1:13). The Zealots were a group who were zealous for the Law and would have found kinship in Jesus words: "I did not come to abolish [the Law], but to complete. I tell you this: so long as the heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Law..." (Matthew 5:18). Contrary to later Christian understanding I declare this would have included circumcision and the dietary laws, as well as many other parts of the Law observed by ultra-orthodox Jews, but not by Christians.



And what, in your opinion, would be the completion of the Law? What was the Law created for, what kinds of stipulations were made regarding how long the Law?

quoting

Jesus would have known that the Zealots sought a Messiah who would lead them in a successful drive to push the Romans from Israel (or Palestine as the Romans called it). You would think Jesus would have cleared up that little misunderstanding.



What leads you to believe He didn't?

quoting


I would like to know what is meant by the 'Sons of Thunder'. Eisenman says the meaning is unclear but that it has a certain ring of militancy to it (p. 808). In any case I am glad that here in Mark the author stipulates that Simon was a member of the Zealot party, lest someone again try to tell me that Simon might have been called the Zealot because he was wildly zealous for peanut butter, or something equally non-political. I think it was our old friend Txpiper who tried to pull that on me.



Far be it from me to agree too much with Tx, but he does have a point. We're taking a lot, and I do mean a lot of the NT out of context and people like me, you and Eisenman can only attempt to put things back into context. I personally don't feel strongly one way or the other about it.

quoting

I want to stress that Jesus would have been well aware of the messianic claims made by the Zealots and if it wasn't his own message that "he would be the one to set Israel free" (Luke 24:21) during the course of his own life and theirs, you'd think he would have cleared up that little misunderstanding before his crucifixion.



It wasn't Jesus' job to teach the detailed specifics of what Christianity was going to be, especially to the common man. His mission was to bring people back to God and make them aware of the fact that big things were about to happen. It was the apostles job, via the HG induced knowledge, to get into the weeds with people.

quoting

The Zealots, as Eisenman has pointed out, had numerous concerns, not least of which was what they saw as the desecration of the Temple by the Romans. Their messianic hope did not encompass waiting for an era thousands of years past their own life times for the matter to be set right.



I would just like to take this opportunity to point out that not all Christians believe that we are still waiting for things to happen today. This is one of those areas where Bookworm and I have different beliefs. I only bring it up so that you don't get hung up on that particular belief because it's super debatable.

quoting

I contend they banded around Jesus, who they saw as the Messiah, because his teachings led them to believe he was the one who would lead them against the foreigners.



On principle, I wouldn't disagree, I just don't believe what they were pre-crucifiction defines what they were post-crucifiction.

quoting

Indeed Luke's genealogy points out he was in the line-of-David, demonstrating he could claim kingship, and as the Romans mockingly attached to his cross, 'This is the King of the Jews' (Luke 23:38). If these words truly were attached by a plaque above him then this is ample evidence the Romans saw him as a Messianic claimant to the throne of David. Perhaps it was their intention to nip a rebellion in the bud. Later, during the failed revolt of 66-73 AD, Vespasian set out to eradicate all members of the House of David that he might permanently remove the Jewish hope for a successful challenge to Rome.



And? I'm sorry, but I've somehow missed what this has to do with the price of tea in China emoticon

quoting


quoting

Bookworm88 ...
Someday in the future, Israel will be free of all enemies.


As I said above, that would be little consolation to the Zealots who wanted the Romans expelled, yesterday, not two thousand or more years hence in an unspecified future. I see no possible way these men who followed him would not have understood his intended message.



Does any student ever fully grasp the nuances their teachers are presenting to them?

quoting

quoting

Bookworm88 ...
Jesus wasn't lying when he gave indication that his coming would fulfill that promise, but he did not go around carrying a sword trying to make it happen physically during his first advent.


He may not have carried a sword, but his followers did. When he was near arrest "Simon Peter drew his sword..." (John 18:10), we all know that story. The others with him asked, 'Lord, shall we use our swords' (Luke 22:50)? Once again, it is Luke that gives us a hint of greater things. The disciples and followers of Jesus carried with them swords, probably for their own protection as well as that of Jesus.



And? What is this to prove?

quoting

However, if Jesus didn't want them using swords to defend him then why would they carry them? Indeed he had told them previously "... if you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one..." (Luke 22:36). At his arrest Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I a brigand, that you had to set out to capture me with swords and clubs" (Matthew 26:55)? Good question, eh? Perhaps those coming to make the arrest knew that Jesus always travelled with men armed to the teeth?



What we've seen doesn't prove that Jesus didn't want them to use swords to protect themselves, just that He didn't want them to use the swords at that time.

7/21/2011, 6:45 pm Link to this post Send Email to gnastynate   Send PM to gnastynate Blog
 
dadmann Profile
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Re: Prophecy in the Bible


 Image

The settling of the Jews back in their homeland

Image I ( God ) will bring my exiled people of Israel back from distant lands .. and they will rebuild their ruined cities and live in them again .. They will plant vineyards and gardens .. they will eat their crops and drink their wine .. I will firmly plant them there in their own land .. They will never again be uprooted from the land I have given them

.. says the Lord your God . . . . Amos 9:14-15

come quickly Lord Jesus

---

11/13/2012, 8:25 pm Link to this post Send Email to dadmann   Send PM to dadmann Blog
 


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