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algee3 Profile
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Re: End of World


Scariest words in the entire Bible:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ -Matthew 7:21-23
 
And it says many will have deceived themselves. emoticon


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BornAgain9 Profile
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Re: End of World


quoting

algee3 ...

Scariest words in the entire Bible:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ -Matthew 7:21-23
 
And it says many will have deceived themselves. emoticon


Which tells us Christian were divided in their thoughts and condemning one another as false believers even in the 1st century, as in fact were many Jews. In the quote above the author of Matthew is condemning those who disagreed with him, and if you look at the Christian texts that never made it into the Bible you will see many of them were doing the same thing. The winner writes history and those in power in the Catholic church selected those texts they wanted for inclusion in the Holy Bible.

Algee, there are so many different ways of interpreting scripture, which is so evident in the large number of Christian groups – Greek Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, and so on – that the only real surprise is that any of them could still believe that they alone hold the truth. Of course, as you recognize, self deception is nothing new and whether we are talking about belief in aliens, ghosts, New Age mumbo jumbo, or the vast array of religious beliefs held world wide, self deception is an integral part of those beliefs. I suspect we both agree on this. It is easy to see the self deception in others, not so easy to detect it in ourselves; and I am not so sure that being self deceived makes most people ‘evildoers’. My Dutch Reformed friend, a kind and generous woman, the mother of two young children, is not an evil doer.
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Bookworm88 Profile
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Re: End of World


quoting

BornAgain9 ...
 In the quote above the author of Matthew is condemning those who disagreed with him,

The author of the book was simply quoting the words of Christ, not making some sort of argument on his own against anyone.

quoting

My Dutch Reformed friend, a kind and generous woman, the mother of two young children, is not an evil doer.

I just looked up the beliefs of the Dutch Reformed On the web, and I do not see anything widely inconsistent with that which I believe in regards to entrance to Heaven. What is it about their beliefs that makes you say, "my Dutch Reformed friend thinks you are headed the other way"?

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Re: End of World


quoting

Bookworm88 ...
I just looked up the beliefs of the Dutch Reformed On the web, and I do not see anything widely inconsistent with that which I believe in regards to entrance to Heaven. What is it about their beliefs that makes you say, "my Dutch Reformed friend thinks you are headed the other way"?


The only reason I said what I did is that she told me anyone who was not Dutch Reformed was a false Christian. My understanding from forum discussions is that false Christians are perceived as not headed to salvation. Perhaps I have misunderstood and the general belief is that false Christians are also saved?

The Dutch Reformed church is at the root Calvinist, yes? The Calvinists believe in predestination. I do not think they accept the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

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Re: End of World


quoting

Bookworm88 ...

quoting

BornAgain9 ...
 In the quote above the author of Matthew is condemning those who disagreed with him,

The author of the book was simply quoting the words of Christ, not making some sort of argument on his own against anyone.



I am far from convinced that those are the words of the historical Jesus. Tom Harpur did not accept the existence of the historical Jesus, as I recall, and viewed the Christ as a figure of pagan origin. I think he wasn't far off. I suspect Jesus was a rabbi with connections to the Zealots, and it is my guess he was viewed by them as a messianic figure, not as God. Nor do I think any devout Jew, and Jesus was devout, would think he was the Son of God. As such those words quoted by Algee could not have been uttered by Jesus. They were put in his mouth by the author of Matthew.

In the past I have given some of my reasons for holding this view; it doesn't come unsupported. I turn to Luke to back up some of my claims, which you may recall.

We can't trust everything in the Gospels as historical. Robert Eiserman states that Jesus would likely have spoken Aramaic. Some of the statements attributed to Jesus in the Gospels, he says, translate easily back into that tongue. Others of his so-called words do not make that translation well, but do translate well into Greek. In some quotes Jesus makes plays on words that translate well back into ancient Greek, but for which no double meanings exist in Aramaic. This is part the investigation into textual criticism that lends support to the view that some of the words attributed in the Gospels to Jesus do not in fact belong to him.

It is a bit off the mark, but in Mark (pardon the pun) the earliest manuscripts all end at Mark 16:8. That which follows is a later addition. The oldest manuscript for the add-on does not predate AD 1000. It is possibly a forgery. At the very least it is part of an older source that did not originally belong with Mark. This underscores my concern that the truth is a bit more slippery and less certain than many think.

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Re: End of World


quoting


The Dutch Reformed church is at the root Calvinist, yes? The Calvinists believe in predestination. I do not think they accept the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.


I guess I should have said, justification by faith alone.
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Bookworm88 Profile
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Re: End of World


quoting

BornAgain9 ...

quoting


The Dutch Reformed church is at the root Calvinist, yes? The Calvinists believe in predestination. I do not think they accept the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.


I guess I should have said, justification by faith alone.

The concept of predestination does not rule out either salvation by faith alone or justification by faith alone. The opposite of justification by faith alone is justification due to our own human efforts. Calvinists do not believe that we are justified by our own human efforts. In fact, they believe that an unsaved person is so totally dead, and unable to respond to God, that God must give a person spiritual life before that person can even have faith.

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algee3 Profile
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Re: End of World


quoting

Which tells us Christian were divided in their thoughts and condemning one another as false believers even in the 1st century, as in fact were many Jews.

If it's nothing more than "Christians condemning one another" then it's really nothing to worry about. But if it's true, then there are many who have a problem. A study of 1 John would be in order to determine if one is really in the faith or not.

quoting

and if you look at the Christian texts that never made it into the Bible you will see many of them were doing the same thing. The winner writes history and those in power in the Catholic church selected those texts they wanted for inclusion in the Holy Bible.

That's a whole separate topic, but stating "which books didn't make it in" is quite misleading.
Now, if the winner writes history, then why is the Bible so full of the shortcomings of all these "winners"" Peter denied the Lord three times, Paul persecuted Christians and Thomas doubted. I believe that all those weaknesses and failures being recorded lends to the Bible's credibility.

quoting

Algee, there are so many different ways of interpreting scripture,

Sure, and that is completely irrelevant. It does not diminish the fact that there is right and wrong. Be sure you find it.

quoting

which is so evident in the large number of Christian groups – Greek Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, and so on – that the only real surprise is that any of them could still believe that they alone hold the truth.

Most denominations do NOT consider their denomination the only true one. I find that the one true Church passes all human borders and divisions. Those who believe that only their particular one, regardless of beliefs, is true are usually in a cult.
But don't get me wrong, there certainly are false religions out there proclaiming to be Christian when they are not. The Bible warns of false teachers, just like Harold Camping.

quoting

and I am not so sure that being self deceived makes most people ‘evildoers’. My Dutch Reformed friend, a kind and generous woman, the mother of two young children, is not an evil doer.

So, she is a good person then? By what standard, man's or God's?
And if she really is truly good, what need does she have for a Savior?




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5/29/2011, 12:15 am Link to this post Send Email to algee3   Send PM to algee3
 
BornAgain9 Profile
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Re: End of World


quoting

algee3 ...

quoting

BA... and I am not so sure that being self deceived makes most people ‘evildoers’. My Dutch Reformed friend, a kind and generous woman, the mother of two young children, is not an evil doer.



So, she is a good person then? By what standard, man's or God's?


By my standard.

An Islamist might judge her an immoral person, based on their own their own understanding of Allah's moral imperative. In the end it is really only the Islamist's own views, not God's, that is the basis of his judgment; and every individual who calls themselves a Christian will judge her, and everyone else, by their own interpretation of what they imagine God thinks. In the end it is really only Man who judges.
  
quoting

algee3 ...
And if she really is truly good, what need does she have for a Savior?

In post Calvinist theology the notion is that Christ died only for the Elect. If she is one of the Chosen then Christ died for her.

5/29/2011, 6:55 am Link to this post Send Email to BornAgain9   Send PM to BornAgain9 ICQ Blog
 
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Re: End of World


quoting

Susa
In 2 hours it will be 6:00pm in my time zone. I don't see anything happening!

I was not worrying because if it is rapture time I expect to be going and if it is not things are still good.


Well, Susa. We are all still here. I think Harold Camping has now announced that May 21st was really only the beginning of the beginning of the end. Hmm.

quoting

Matthew 16:28
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.


Above, the first failed prediction of the end time -- that we have record of.
5/29/2011, 7:14 am Link to this post Send Email to BornAgain9   Send PM to BornAgain9 ICQ Blog
 


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