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BornAgain9 Profile
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Neanderthal genes 'survive in us'


I put topic in Facing Skeptics instead of News because of the potential for disagreement.

Has everyone seen this story? The Neanderthal genes are few in number, but they are there. They are also only found among human groups that migrated out of Africa. Those modern humans that stayed on the continent presumably did not come into contact with the Neanderthal people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8660940.stm
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Bookworm88 Profile
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Re: Neanderthal genes 'survive in us'


I've heard that we share 98% of our DNA with chimps, but this article is saying we share only 4% of our DNA with Neanderthals. Wouldn't the split from Neanderthals have occured after the split with chimps?
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BornAgain9 Profile
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Re: Neanderthal genes 'survive in us'


quoting

Bookworm88 ...

I've heard that we share 98% of our DNA with chimps, but this article is saying we share only 4% of our DNA with Neanderthals. Wouldn't the split from Neanderthals have occured after the split with chimps?



We actually share an estimated 99.5% of our genome with Neanderthals. The mtDNA analysis shows that the split in our ancestry took us away from the Neanderthal lineage about 500,000 years ago.

Last summer I had some DNA testing done hoping it might help with my genealogy research. We are all divided into different haplogroups. Mine is R1b (which comprises about 70% of the English population), but there are many others.

My understanding is that when our ancestors migrated from Africa they contacted (perhaps 35,000 to 40,000 years ago) populations of Neanderthals. There is a subset of genes found in Neanderthals and in humans that migrated from Africa, but which are not found in African human populations. Those haplogroups that remained behind in Africa did not mix with Neanderthals and did not pick up any Neanderthal genes.

This subset of genes that we share with Neanderthals is found in groups as diverse as the French and Chinese. That probably means the mixing took place before the French and Chinese populations diverged. That was a long time ago.



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Bookworm88 Profile
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Re: Neanderthal genes 'survive in us'


So had Neanderthals not migrated from Africa? Had they supposedly developed completely separate from our African ancestors?
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Re: Neanderthal genes 'survive in us'


quoting

Bookworm88 ...

So had Neanderthals not migrated from Africa? Had they supposedly developed completely separate from our African ancestors?


My guess is that the Neanderthal lineage left Africa in the neighborhood of 500,000 years ago, which was the time of our last common ancestor. When our own lineage followed some 40,000 years ago we encountered the Neanderthals and were forced eastward. There was a period of some 10,000 years when we each co-existed at the edge of each others range. The sharing of genes would have taken place during that time.

Our ancestors, as they encountered the Neanderthals, moved eastward. The French and Chinese both carry the same Neanderthal genes, so both the French and Chinese were likely related family groups at that time. Probably the number was not large. Maybe it was only a small migration.

The Noah story does not make sense in terms of the Neanderthal genes. The Great Flood story would require that the Neanderthal genes be passed on by Noah and his kin. How would you then explain black Africans not possessing Neanderthal genes while Europeans and Asians do? The Out of Africa hypothesis explains the present data, the Noah story does not.
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Re: Neanderthal genes 'survive in us'


My favourite radio program is Quirks and Quarks. This past week they interviewed the scientist who published the recent paper on the Neanderthals. The interview segment is titled Neanderthals in the Family. You might find it interesting.

http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/podcast.html

Quirks & Quarks 2010-05-08

Neanderthals in the Family, Elephants Learn to Bee-ware, Copying for Success, Aphids' Stolen Finery, The Pill Turns 50.

___________________

Also interesting is an earlier interview titled The Humans Who Went Extinct:

http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/09-10/qq-2010-01-09.html

It discusses a new theory of why Neanderthal went extinct and we didn't. Very interesting.


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quoting

BornAgain9 ...
The Noah story does not make sense in terms of the Neanderthal genes. The Great Flood story would require that the Neanderthal genes be passed on by Noah and his kin. How would you then explain black Africans not possessing Neanderthal genes while Europeans and Asians do? The Out of Africa hypothesis explains the present data, the Noah story does not.

Noah himself did not have to have the particular sequence of genes that have been termed "neanderthal genes." Noah had three sons, and each of those sons had a wife. DNA could have been passed along down two of the three children's lines, but not down the third.

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quoting

Bookworm88 ...

quoting

BornAgain9 ...
The Noah story does not make sense in terms of the Neanderthal genes. The Great Flood story would require that the Neanderthal genes be passed on by Noah and his kin. How would you then explain black Africans not possessing Neanderthal genes while Europeans and Asians do? The Out of Africa hypothesis explains the present data, the Noah story does not.

Noah himself did not have to have the particular sequence of genes that have been termed "neanderthal genes." Noah had three sons, and each of those sons had a wife. DNA could have been passed along down two of the three children's lines, but not down the third.



It just doesn't make much sense Bookworm. The odds that the lines were forever kept separate are nil. You have only 3 breeding pairs -- four if you count Noah and his wife. It is not possible that their children would have avoided intermarrying. Let's say only one of them carried the Neanderthal genes. That would mean their children would have had to have sexual relations only with their siblings. Inbreeding, no matter how you cut it, could not be avoided and would have gone on for generations.

The story of Noah cannot be real. It's not possible. There are too many problems that arise when one starts contemplating all the difficulties. The problem with the Neanderthal genes is only one more wrench in the mix.

Now, this doesn't disprove the existence of God, but it likely means the idea of God has to be rethought. What would it mean to you if it finally became obvious that Noah's flood and some other stories were not actual events, but ancient myths and legends?
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Bookworm88 Profile
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quoting

BornAgain9 ...
It just doesn't make much sense Bookworm. The odds that the lines were forever kept separate are nil. You have only 3 breeding pairs -- four if you count Noah and his wife. It is not possible that their children would have avoided intermarrying. Let's say only one of them carried the Neanderthal genes. That would mean their children would have had to have sexual relations only with their siblings. Inbreeding, no matter how you cut it, could not be avoided and would have gone on for generations.

But inbreeding at that point in human history would not have been the problem that it is today. After all, those people before the flood lived to be 900 years old. They simply didn't pass along the degenerative issues that people devoloped later.

quoting

The story of Noah cannot be real. It's not possible. There are too many problems that arise when one starts contemplating all the difficulties.

Sure, if one contemplates difficulties without including God in the equation.

quoting

Now, this doesn't disprove the existence of God, but it likely means the idea of God has to be rethought. What would it mean to you if it finally became obvious that Noah's flood and some other stories were not actual events, but ancient myths and legends?

And what would it mean to you if they were not myths and legends, but were actual events?

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quoting

BornAgain9 ...What would it mean to you if it finally became obvious that Noah's flood and some other stories were not actual events, but ancient myths and legends?



quoting

Bookworm88 ...
And what would it mean to you if they were not myths and legends, but were actual events?

I'd have a rum and Coke and consider my next move. emoticon

Honestly, I think it was Genesis that undermined my faith in the first place. I couldn't rationalize it in any way. I still can't. I was taught that Genesis was the word of God. In my mind the notion developed that if Genesis wasn't true God wasn't either. I realize now that A doesn't equal B, but it's too late to revisit the question. Once you have lost any reason to believe there is no reason to get the belief back.

It seems to me most Christians don't give the problems in Genesis a second thought. Most may not even be aware there are issues, those that know about them either try to rationalize them away or accept that they truly are myths. A few maybe become atheists, most simply adapt their beliefs to accommodate the new reality.

I know it's the wrong thread, but I haven't yet read the whole book and I wonder if Ed Boyd addresses Genesis in Letters from a Skeptic?

Do you see all of Genesis as essential to your belief? Must you, for example, believe there was really a talking serpent that was made legless as punishment for his actions? Were all serpents punished for the actions of one? I find it easier to believe such things are examples of myth that have survived from the very early days.

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